Photo: Starz, Roger and Bree, Ep 408, Wilmington
Aaaaalllrighty then. We are well into Droughtlander, and feeling it, are we not? With the premiere of Season 5 just a short 22 weeks away, ? we need things to do!
The ladies and I did this discussion sometime back, actually in April, (wow! time flies!). At the time I was pretty backed up in the editing department, with 2 interviews (Tim Downie and Sera-Lys McArthur) and our Episode 412 Discussion. Now it’s September, the air is getting crisp, and it was time to pull out old 408. This was a fun one, I really enjoyed editing this discussion.
Without further ado… I give you… us!
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Wishing you well, as always. ?
Wonderful editing job, Courtney. Always floored by how sensible our crazy discussions end up being under your firm hand. ?
hee hee hee, thank you. It’s true! 🙂 xo
Another great podcast. I really wish sometimes that it was a live feed so I could comment during instead of after.
A lot of agreement with the comments. I’ve been waiting for Karmen’s thoughts on the surgery for a while. I was surprised that it was more on the technicalities of the procedure as opposed to what I thought was absolutely ludicrous and blatantly obvious to just the average watcher. I just felt that the use of alcohol and its quick effectiveness to almost totally anesthetize him was totally unbelievable. If that’s how easy it was to do surgery using that, it would be no problem on anyone. Tryon was barely holding him down from moving and when he seemed to be coming to, a few sips more and he was out again.
As far as the lovemaking between Bree and Roger on their wedding night, I thought it was just me who felt uncomfortable watching it because I had gotten to “know them” behind the scenes. I guess it was more than that and you ladies all expressed very well why I probably felt it as well. I, too, thought the camera lingering on Sophie’s breasts was unnecessary. I just felt that Roger’s portrayal and behavior afterwards was a result of poor writing. If it isn’t their intent to make him seem like a douche, they have no clue how well they’re doing so.
This was definitely one of my lower ranked episodes and I felt this season was definitely a roller coaster ride with a few outstanding episodes which made the poor ones seem even worse. Unlike most of you, I hated the introduction of George Washington because if we ever get to the point that he actually does enter the story, the impact will be diminished. The whole theater scenes, including the surgery, seemed contrived, although as Courtney said, it was a vehicle to get them where they needed to be for the next episode. As much as I love Duncan LaCroix, I’m hating how they’re writing his Regulator story and felt the whole robbery of the tax carriage was totally unbelievable. All of these things, to me, made for a poor episode. The best (in a bad kind of way) was Sophie’s portrayal after the rape. I thought she did a fantastic job with very tough material.
Thanks Maryann! I hope this writer gets more oversight and input for Season 5, as he is back on the team. Interesting points about the surgery. I hope Karmen will respond. And also about George Washington. Thanks for being in and contributing to this community.
PS One of these days I will figure out a live streaming option, so everyone can participate. xo
Hi Maryann. Sorry to disappoint about the alcohol as anesthetic. Claire asked Tryon to give him something to bite down on so in the beginning, at least, she wasn’t expecting the alcohol to be very effective. There were so many things wrong with the surgery that I am afraid these distracted me. Some were such bad medicine that I felt compelled to point these out. ?
I do love listening to you ladies dissect and comment on the episodes. I agree that it was a good but far from great episode.
I’ve seen all the surgery I care to see.
Bree and Roger leave me feeling flat or uncomfortable. I agree fade to black with them.
The writing for Roger and Bree was pretty bad over all in season 4. One of my big disappointments. I think whoever said it seems lazy makes a good point.
The instances in which they add to the story most often come off as ludicrous.
I’m hoping for much better writing in Season 5 but we have many of the same writers and again some new ones. So we shall see.
I do think it was a mistake to introduce George Washington as it dilutes the impact when Jamie meets him later. These things that the writers think are “fun” usually backfire.
I’m interested to see if Sam and Cait really have any say as producers. I truly hope so and that they are not treated as figureheads.
Thanks again for providing thoughtful pieces for us during this long Droughtlander.
Hi Ruth Ann,
You’re very welcome – I too hope there’s some learning from S4 which is being incorporated for S5. Diana has had positive things to say so far, which is promising, ?
Thanks for your comment, nice to “see” you. xo
I love your podcasts! In fact, in our obsession, my friend and I have started a “Gab and Grab Lunch” group of Obsessenachs. Your podcasts serve as a “role model” for us expressing ourselves. Our topics are more free flowing- not episode or specific book based, but are all Outlander inclusive. I hope that our discussions and as intelligent as yours are. So far, so good!
Thanks for doing them. Your creativity and hard work are obvious and inspiring.
Good luck with your new group, Susan! ??????
Wow Susan, Thank you for your kind words. I’d love to see a photo of your group sometime. ? xo
Roger and Bree have come a long way in their relationship – curious as to how it progresses along in Season 5.
Even Diana could’nt make the Roger , Brie connection work compared to Jamie and Clair .
Good point. But I’m not sure she even tried. Only one J and C… ❤️
I totally agree with all of you about the writers. I am a method actor myself and you do lose yourself to the character and what’s happening to that person as you become that character and in fact you feel it is a real person that speaks through you.
I personally loved the cherry tree reference to George Washington because it is a myth, and I loved the blank stare he and Martha had on their faces as they had no idea what she was talking about. I laughed out loud at that one!
Suzie I love learning this about you! What kinds of work do you do? Theater? Film? xo
You did it again, ladies! A fascinating, witty, entertaining discussion as usual. I cannot get enough! As a matter of fact, I’ve been trying to coin a word similar to “Droughtlander” to describe the hiatus between your discussions. Maybe you can help, Courtney? You’re so good with words and puns!
On a more serious note, I agree with most of your views and I wish I had people around me with whom I could discuss Outlander (show and books) in depth the way you do. You raise very interesting subjects, consider different perspectives and point out the tiniest details. Love that, I’m a Virgo!
I found there was the right kind of chemistry between Roger and Bree until the Scottish festival back in the ‘70s but then it vanished “through the stones”. On the other hand, I didn’t find their relationship particularly good in the book. I wasn’t really impressed by these characters, at least from what I recollect. My overall impression may change after reading book 5, but I don’t want to read ahead.
The wedding scene made me also feel a bit uncomfortable. As you, I can only hope there will be improvement from the writers’ side (although it may not be entirely their fault if the characters say incongruous things and act in an awkward manner). Sophie and Rick are fine actors and sometimes it seems a bit of a waste.
The last scene and the way the rape was portrayed are in my opinion a stroke of genius. It’s one of those cases when “less is more”. Very powerful!
I don’t mind if the surgery scenes and other medical stuff are depicted wrongly so long as they don’t disrupt the narrative. Furthermore, I look forward to Karmen’s and Catherine’s anatomy lessons!
I think you should all be hired by Starz as consultants, I’m not kidding!
Thank you again for your precious time, for sharing with us your thoughts and observations and for dedicating so much work, Courtney. I don’t know how much, but I know pre and post production take a LOT of time. I/We really appreciate it!
ladies all of you articulate & “Claire”ify” all my thoughts regarding this episode & season. Keep doing these enjoyable recaps.
Since I’m going to miss you wonderful ladies in New Orleans, I thought I would console myself by catching up on the episode discussions I’ve missed. I’m only halfway through 408 and had to stop and share some thoughts before I forget. Forgive if they are mentioned in other comments.
Regarding the rape scene, although I agree with much of what was said, including how chillingly well it was produced, edited, acted (I’ll get to Bonnet in a moment), what I appreciated most was how perfectly Sophie depicted dissociation, which is so common during rape. And she continued to depict it well in ensuing scenes – the opening of the next episode was brilliant – and then in future episodes when her attention wandered. That is also one factor that may lead survivors to blame themselves, which she would call on later.
I don’t like the Pirates of the Caribbean vibe in Ed Speleers’ portrayal of Bonnet either, although I don’t know if that is the actor or what is asked of him. However, there is an aspect of book Bonnet that can almost playfully enjoy the spoils of his evil. Since he’s a sociopath, the world is his for the taking. The hair toss in itself didn’t bother me because it showed that this wasn’t a violent act to him, he was simply taking what was his, NBD he’s not preparing to do anything more than grab a quickie in payment for goods. In fact, in the book its clear that he thought Bree was a whore, certainly that she was coming of her own accord, although I doubt what she was or wasn’t would matter to him. All of which makes him more evil and dangerous.
I was really coming to comment on Bree and Roger and their wedding night, so I should have left more room but will try to be more succinct (hah!) I agree about the one sex scene fits all problem. This may in part be script/directing laziness, or TV repeating whatever works. I think the biggest problem for everything that has to do with Bree and Roger is that they were never developed for us, either individually or as a couple. As a viewer I didn’t really know that show Bree and Roger had been dating until she threw her blouse at the moose (or maybe a few scenes earlier at the gathering) and we know what viewer response to that poorly developed interaction was.
By Jamie and Claire’s wedding night we had already had 6 episodes of foreplay. They were ready and the audience was very ready. The points you all made about their ages, and Claire being the experienced one and Jamie being both in love and deprived, also made a difference. As far as I know men don’t find their first experience painful, beyond the potential for embarrassment. During those 6 episodes of sexual tension – from the moment they laid eyes on each other in front of a roaring fire – they were also becoming friends. Finally, Jamie and Claire’s wedding night was given an entire episode!! Sophie, Rik, writers and director, were given a tough row to hoe (poor metaphor) to create anything close for them with what had to be a quick role in the hay with a virgin, given the time constraints. To be followed – as show pacing required – by an even less emotionally “earned” fight. I also agreed that too much of potentially arousing part of the scene depended on Sophie’s breasts and nudity. In her parents’ case, it was equal, with Claire kindly sharing her close up appreciation of Jamie.
For those who don’t mind comparing show and book, it is no small thing that Diana gave Bree and Roger a whole night (as well as whole previous lives and a courtship, but I won’t quibble there.) Possibly more importantly, in terms of making their wedding night and lovemaking unique, the writer had the luxury of setting the whole scene in the dark. They could only hear and touch each other. It was poignant, erotic, even humorous at times. They made love – in various forms – several times, with intimacy increasing in each. As I said, the show did not have that luxury, so they had to have built on showing (which is the TV’s advantage) Bree and Roger falling in love, with their passion throughout those mixed messages, for the audience to buy into
…I got called away and “posted” before finishing my last sentence. I was saying what I thought was needed for the audience to buy into a night that had cemented Bree and Roger’s bond so richly in the books – whatever came next. That didn’t happen for them by the end of S4, we’ll see what comes next.
So, long overdue here are my two cents on a particular part of this episode. As always, you ladies gave us a great discussion to listen to. Thanks a lot!
Comment on Roger leaving Bree after their handfasting: I think this is genuinely not believable and totally out of character for the kind of man that Roger (in my estimation) is. Look at it like this; here is a man who is quite knowlegeable of history and who has been shown as rather levelheaded. He knows that certain people can travel through time and even if you have gained this information the idea has to be quite daunting, to say the least.
Now, Roger finds out that the woman he loves has actually traveled back in time 200 years. Or at least he THINKS she has. Because what does he know? She might have ended up anywhere in time, right? Anyway, he decides to follow her in order to help and protect her and to make sure she comes back. This after considering the uncertainty of this time traveling and the appearant danger of such a venture. After all, it´s not like booking a train ticket. So he prepares as well as he can and then, away he goes, back in time.
He makes it to a port and manages to get a place on a ship bound for The Colonies, crosses the Atlantic with all the dangers and trials that comes with such a travel, and to add to the trauma the captain is obviously a bloody lunatic! After making it across the ocean partly by pure luck, or if you will, the providence of God, he is faced with the problem of actually finding his loved one on this vast continent. Ok, the part that he has to search through is of course not the whole continent but it´s a sufficiently challenging endeavor anyway.
Lo and behold, he actually manages to find Bree! And without too much trouble at that. So they meet and sneaks away to get handfast(ed?) and consummate their union.
Now, here comes the, in my opinion, absolutely unbelievably stupid incoherency where we are to accept that this man, after going through all this, knowing full and well that these are very dangerous times and that a woman especially is not at all safe in a place such as this without the protection of a man, would just walk out on this woman that he loves and has followed (literally) through time and space after a stupid argument. Really?! I mean, REALLY!??! NO WAY!! It is in every way inconsistent with Rogers character and personality. If you are the kind of person who would go through all this trouble and all these dangers to find the person you love you don´t walk out on the like this. You just don´t. Not this flippantly.
So, in my opinion this is where the writers started to destroy the character of Roger in S4 and after that it all went downhill. I actually like Roger as a character. He shows that a man can be a strong, decisive and competent person without being The King of Men. However, I think they made him many disservices in S4, so much to the degree that many viewers really started to dislike him and even so with some “book readers” that like Roger in the books but disliked him in S4 because of how they wrote him.
Anyway, this is my take on this particular subject.
Over and out.