OutlanderBTS Episode 411, The Discussion – If Not For Hope

Photo: Brianna hears something… Starz, Episode 411

Phew! This one is long, and good, and nsfw (not safe for work), meaning, in this case, if you’re listening to this at home or at work, earbuds are recommended. You need to know that we discuss pretty much EVERYTHING in 411, and beyond. There are MAJOR spoilers in this discussion for show only people, and for those who’ve not read past Drums of Autumn, MAJOR. SPOILERS. You’ve been warned.

Also, if you are offended by bawdy talk, I suggest you turn back now!

Karmen learns a new expression, Catherine educates us, and Antoinette is her wonderfully honest, articulate self. We had a lot of fun doing this one. It was a BEAR to edit, as we talked for over 3 hours, and had technical difficulties coming and going.

Basically, I need a screener for Season 5 if I’m gonna do this thing right. A screener would allow our group to watch the show a little early, so I could host the discussion earlier, edit and produce the video sooner, and get it out to you all more expediently. Stay tuned, I may ask for your help with that! 

Without further ado… I hope you enjoy this as much as we did. xo


For more Episode Discussions like this one, go to Episode Discussions

If you’re looking for more Outlander during Droughtlander (aside from anticipating Bees, re-reading Diana’s other 8 books, and re-watching the show), visit my Interviews page, and Reader Favorites page.


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72 comments on “OutlanderBTS Episode 411, The Discussion – If Not For Hope

  1. This is my favorite podcast. Thank you so much ladies. Enjoy the intellect and thought process so much. I have struggled this season again with the lack of strength of Jamie. Also, they miss so many wonderful quotes from the source material and waste time with other “stuff”. Like the psychology game. Why oh why and what was the purpose? I was insulted by the Lord John display. He would not have been so open in that type of situation. Sam always does his scenes so well. I do not like how they portray Claire for many seasons. I am not a book purist and have liked a few of the changes, but it seems they miss so many of the wonderful moments from DG. I just don’t get it sometimes. Please do not edit the material. I laughed so hard. I just cannot imagine what we missed!! Thank you again.

    • I felt the game at the table was such a waste of time. As were other scenes. Sophie was so stilted in her acting. She seemed disconnected from the scenes she was in. There was also the constant “hopes” that were mentioned that hit that way too hard over our heads. I loved the scenes with Claire and Jamie in this episode and have watched the multiple times. I miss seeing more of them. Especially when other scenes are either a waste or compressed so that they make little sense.

  2. I did feel that Claire should have told Jamie she was wrong to not tell him about Bonnet. I felt that this kind of secret was too big to not tell him about. I understood that there are secrets she may not share with him because of her past relationship with Bree, but I feel she needed to own up to Jamie that, though Bree may have secrets she wants only to share with her, that this one was an exception and that she was wrong to keep it from him. It wasn’t only that Roger might have been saved, it caused harm to Jamie and may be endangering all of their lives on this expedition. I can understand Claire’s reaction to Bree’s request in the moment, but she should have told her daughter no, she had to tell Jamie. After all, Jamie and Claire are both parents to Bree now, not just Claire.

    In the script it says that Claire is acting coldly because she feels responsible and guilty about what happened. She acted the same in “Both Sides Now” in Season 1 where she appears angry at Jamie but then says in a voiceover that she was really angry at herself. Or in “Faith,” where she was furious with herself after she realized she was at fault. She appeared furious at Jamie. In this episode then, I felt she wasn’t angry at him. On the contrary, I thought Jamie would be angry at her for not telling him what she knew. He was frustrated but I felt it was with himself. He was irritated, though, that Claire didn’t tell him what she knew. Still, he felt responsible, which is how he often feels. I like that about him. His default is loving Claire and waiting to hear more from her rather than becoming angry.

    I did think they were making love in the end. I had wanted it go on longer and for them to remove more of their clothing 🙂 The script says they were voracious or words to the effect for not making love for a while. I loved the scene overall. It was very moving. Sam was fantastic in this scene. When Claire pushed his head toward hers, he just looked so vulnerable.

    • I can understand her feeling guilty about it but remember Claire had only found out about Bonnet being Bree’s rapists in the scene simultaneously unfolding with Jamie being alerted to Roger’s presence on the Ridge. So she really could not have made much of a difference unless she had ESP and sense Jamie was about to beat down on the wrong guy at that very moment.

      • It’s ambiguous whether those things were happening simultaneously. The episode is unclear about that. But true, if that was the case, she wouldn’t have made a difference. Still, aside from that, I feel she should have told Bree she couldn’t keep that secret. Keeping the secret means she has to keep the ring a secret–how long could she do that? IAnd when that eventually comes out, Jamie would feel even more hurt.

        • I think the sequencing of the scenes intends for us to see it as basically simultaneous or at least in close proximity in time. Close enough that Claire did not have a chance for her pact with Bree to have made a difference.

          • And yes there were other problems with Claire agreeing to keep that secret from Jamie in terms of the trust between them, it would have done poor Roger no good though. Jamie also did harm with his lie about the injured hand which I’d wager good money Claire saw after he dispatched Roger and he is keeping the fact that he asked Murtaugh to bring Stephen to him so he can deal with him. That’s also breaking trust.

          • Also if you listen to the official podcast of ep 411 Toni Graphia also mentioned this as a plot point reflecting on those events from the previous episodes. This is why the dialogue in Claire’s apology is seems like a bit of a continuity error to me.

          • Interesting. I’ve wondered if Jamie not telling Claire about asking Murtagh to find Bonnet will come up in a future episode. If Murtagh is still in peril I imagine it will come up. Jamie not telling Claire about the beating seems a smaller secret to keep, given that his reason is he wanted to protect Claire and Bree. He didn’t want them knowing the rapist was so close to their home (according to the script).

          • I don’t think either lie is smaller or less damaging than the other. Sure Jamie was motivated by a protective instinct, and so were Claire and Bree. Bree said she did not want Jamie to know about Bonnet because of what she knows they did to them and she was afraid he would go off and try to kill him which could have gotten him hanged. Claire wanted to respect Bree’s wishes and she also knew her daughter was right. I think trying to assign who was more in the wrong or at fault is pointless. They were clearly trying to protect each other and keep each other from getting upset.

      • Just to add, I thought the scene with Jamie and Claire in the tent was beautiful and moving. They both were moved to tears. Claire did apologize to him three times, which was a way of saying she was wrong to keep that information from him.

        • Having read the previous 3 books, yes , it seems that Claire is often angry at herself, but taking it out on Jamie – some may see that as odd, but from personal experience that is quite a normal behavior for some folks. Jamie and Claire are the pillars throughout – but the secret concerning Bonnet was definitely not the secret to be kept. Jamie and Claire always seem to connect and to forgive and forget – that is why we love them so much. There seems to have a lot of miscommunication going around. Actually Young Ian came to the rescue again by voicing his concerns to her, he was able to mend the gap between Jamie and Claire.

          • Yes, I loved Ian voicing his concerns to her and calling her attention away from her own thoughts to how Jamie is feeling. Though I felt Claire knew how Jamie was feeling but didn’t know just yet what to say to him because she felt so guilty for her part in the mess.

  3. I fully enjoyed the 411 dicussion. I am a medical professional and truly relate to Karman though the four of you together so remind me of the discussions my seven girlfriends and I get into after a glass ortwo. On that note I am sure as a great criminal defense lawyer, Antoinette could get Lord John Grey off with “Following too Close” verdict don’t you?
    Pleasecontinue into season 5 & 6

  4. I understand and can appreciate the difficulty in putting together and editing your discussions, but hope you will find a way to continue to make it work. Since I have no one else in my life who watches in real time I just love watching you ladies, and as a recent retiree-aged woman, appreciate your group!

    Something I noticed in watching when Bree was going to sketch Phaedre: if you’re familiar with Vermeer’s painting, Girl With a Pearl Earring, the color of Phaedre’s head covering and shoulder draping is almost identical, and when Phaedre is holding up the fabric near the window it could have been a pose in many of Vermeer’s paintings (only the window would have been to the left on the screen). Coincidence? Just really struck me…

    Thought the setting of the LJG sex scene was just ridiculous. Period. Waaaay too much River Run, not enough Marsali, Fergus (who needs much better writing – and what happened to his printing job?) and Murtagh. Period. With only 13 episodes (and on 12 in future seasons!) too much time is wasted on people and things I don’t care as much about, or at all for that matter.

    i am sooo with Antoinette on this one; the relationship of Jamie and Claire is what grabbed and held me from Season 1 and onward. They need to be recentered for the rest of the season. I want the Frasers passion and intimacy openly celebrated, and I want to see it in the show, not in the periphery. Honestly, the uneven writing between episodes is so frustrating, and unfortunately the show has no one to blame but themselves. The bar was set so high in Season 1, and anything less feels like being cheated. There is a reason #409 is the highest rated episode of the season. Their podcasts sound like they’re fine with the writing throughout the season, but hope they’ll look to other venues to hear other thoughts…

    Carry-on, ladies! YOU are winners, one and all!

    • I so agree about Jamie and Claire. I also want to see them from and center, as they have been for 45 plus episodes. That’s why I watch Outlander. The love scenes between them are an important part of their deep love for one another, the core of who they are together. I’d really like to see another scene like the love scene in “America the Beautiful.” Of the scene in “Eye of the Storm” before the storm hits. I don’t know why there are less of those scenes this season. Sam and Cait are erotic even if they just touch or are in the same space. You feel their chemistry. I hope the next two episodes center more on them.

    • Kimber, I feel the same way about the time spent on characters and/or story lines that I am either not all that interested in or involve actors whose depictions of the characters are at times jarring, and take me out of the story. I know that some of Diana’s books featured characters other than Jamie and Claire in dominant story lines, and have to admit to enjoying those less than others.

      With so few episodes per season, and with the length and breadth of Diana’s books, I often watch and wonder WHY a particular scene was included, or why it featured for a large percentage of the show’s time. I can excuse those that occurred because of the absence of an actor, or those written to include a character that wasn’t in the book, but is in the TV series because of popularity (Murtaugh), but there’s a reason Outlander’s ratings have fallen, and if we who love this story are going to be able to continue to enjoy it on the small screen, TPTB need to address some of the concerns of the fans.

      • I politely disagree with your assessment of DG’s secondary characters. I enjoy them immensely. I enjoy how carefully she describes them: how complex they are: how true to life. The books and the show would be much more monochromatic without them.
        Mrs Fitz, the 2 tacksmen who were always joking around- Rupert and – – , Marsali, Jenny etc etc. they are all so fully drawn and add great spice to the tale.

        • Sally, I don’t think of Marsali or Jenny as “secondary characters”, and honestly, could very much enjoy a spinoff primarily using characters such as these; however, I see Jamie and Claire’s screen time overly (imo) reduced. Knowing how few episodes we are given each season, and having to wait a year for the next to air, I get somewhat frustrated by some of the choices made in terms of what tptb select out of each 1000-page book for airing. As for the books, I have read them all, and the joy of it is I don’t have to miss anything!

      • Thank you, Jill! Ditto, ditto, and ditto!! And OMG, as well acted as #412 was (looking forward to Courtney’s review), the absolute lack of J&C, relegated to 15 secs of “stock” footage and voiceover put me over the edge. These are my personal preferences as we’re all entitled to, and not looking for counters to them, just putting it out there, as Antoinette does. Each of these Outlander BTS discussions typically have me yelling at my tablet after some of Antoinette’s voiced disappointments with, “Amen, sister!” ; )

  5. Fun to hear about episodes. In this one there were 2 things not mentioned. One was the clear reference to Vermeer in the colors and costume of the scene when Bree was drawing Phaedre. It was an amazing recreation of a Vermeer portrait, down to the colors on the wall,and the wooden open window.
    The second – while you are all talking about Bree’s accent – – how about the Indian’s accent? Pure Northeast modern American accent. I’ve found it really jarring in each episode,

  6. I loved LJG entrance; his costume was breath taking. The other men disappeared. I received a lot of tweets to my comment on it. LJG has taken sexual risks; seen in his books. His discussion with Bree was very well down; watching a variety of emotion chasing across his face have us a window into all of the mnefields. David and Sam both are excellent doing that.
    I love any scene with Phadre. She walks a fine line; Jocasta depends on her, but that doesn’t change the fact she is a slave. I could listen to Colin speak, for hours.
    Claire was prickly in the book, during the search and on the show. I was telling at her as I was reading. Jamie was shrouded in his guilt. It took Ian to break the impasse. The discussion of the sex in the tent made me remember last season when Jamie describes his plan to Claire. Once she is in top of him he says she can make lewd motions with her hips to encourage him.
    Sam was wonderful portraying a man new to fatherhood and learning he made a horrible mistake. He realizes that he doesn’t know who his daughter truly is. She is mecurrial in the books and I think Sophie has played her that way. Her realization of the truths John and Jocasta tell her have broken through; Sophie showed that well.
    Accents; my father’s family, was from Hakifax, NS used the King’s English, as did we. We weren’t allowed to watch shows such as Andy Griffith, because of improper English. When we moved to Western Canada, our speech; words and accent were noticed.

    • Thank heavens for Young Ian, he has this radar that lets him know when Claire and Jamie are sort of at odds with each other – which isn’t often. This isn’t the first time he has come to their rescue to patch things up. Jamie is struggling, as you say, to understand his children who grew up without him as he hasn’t had the opportunity to really be with them as they are growing up. It must have been so hard on him. Brianna did soften during her stay with Aunt Jocasta and Lord Grey – she is beginning to slowly understand why her Father is the way he is bit by bit. Also, Jamie is of the 18th Century mentality and social norms, while Brianna is of the 20th Century, two totally different eras and mental perceptions.

  7. Thank God you ladies are back! I have been waiting expectantly for you! Not only am I hooked on Outlander (books and series) but I am now hooked on you all! I haven’t even listened to this discussion yet but had to tell you all how much I look forward to your discussions. What a great group of women! OK – gotta go and listen now….stay tuned….
    My best to you all
    Bonnie Lasinski
    Pawleys Island, SC

  8. I enjoyed your discussion once again. When I was watching the scene with Phaedra and Bree, I was already thinking: I have to tell you guys about the Vermeer paintings (we are proud of out Dutch painters 🙂 ) , but others beat me to it :-). One addition: The Milkmaid is also a painting of Vermeer using similar colours.

    The sexscene with LJG was a surprise in a way, but I liked it. My oldest son is gay, so maybe I look at these scenes different than most other people. I agree that they could have done it differently, but having read two LJG books, it doesn’t seem out of character at least. Your discussion about how Bree would feel about homosexuality, being from the 60’s, reminded me of the docu-drama A Very Britsch Sex Scandal, with a young Sam (beautifully done btw), which happened in the 50’s.

    Like many, I’m also into Outlander for J&C, but the negative comments on SM do worry me, in terms of what it will mean for the future of the show. I watch the old seasons quite a lot and comparing them with this season, I suspect that Starz has already cut back on production budgets. Maybe Courtney can do some ‘digging’ on that 🙂 ? Fact is that the episodes no longer last 60 minutes, but 54 or so, and everything just looks smaller-scaled.

    Thank you Courtney for the hard work ! I was just wondering: was there a technical reason why you didn’t switch to the other ladies for the main screen at the second half of the discussion, or did you just forget 🙂 ?

    • What is SM?
      Viewers comments could be viewed positively in that people are just voicing that they love Jamie and Claire as central to the story. Moore has said Jamie and Claire will remain central to the story. I can’t imagine that they wouldn’t be. They know that the majority of viewers watch Outlander because of Jamie and Claire’s relationship. I know those folks love them too.

      Perhaps if production looks smaller scaled, it’s because they are located in a cabin on a mountain, for the most part. Otherwise, I don’t see it as being smaller scaled.
      The show being renewed for seasons five and six is definitely a good sign. I hope that there are more seasons beyond that.

      • There is so much more going to happen in Jamie’s and Claire’s life and their family – I am hoping the TV Series goes right up to and including book 8 – Written in My Own Heart’s Blood. The love between Jamie and Claire is so rare, it has captivated us all. Book 9, I understand will be on the bookshelves this year – I can hardly wait,

    • i’m glad you mentioned about the negative comments on SM. I also worry about this as Seasons 5 & 6 are up for production really soon. I understand that production for Season 5 is to start this February (if I’m not mistaken). Outlander is such an amazing beautiful series – and quite out of the ordinary. It is too bad that folks can’t just watch Outlander unconditionally, and enjoy it for what it is – a beautiful love shared by Jamie and Claire and their journey through life, to find their true purpose and love their family. I can understand that it is near impossible for a TV series to follow a book 100% – I hope Starz hangs in there and carries on with further Seasons of Outlander.

  9. Thank you again, ladies, for another incredibly captivating, savvy, perceptive, honest and hilarous exchange! Although you cover many subjects, your discussions trigger off interesting, complementary comments from other viewers. I agree with most of your observations and always learn a lot, I’m even getting interested in anatomy!
    Like Antoinette, I’m more a fan of the show than of the books and also notice aspects like rhythm. But there is a small discrepancy between our perceptions. This is probably due to her “trained eye” as an assiduous show watcher. For my part, I seldom watch tv shows but I’ve watched many, many films and maybe that’s the reason why I cannot consider an episode’s rhythm without taking into account the cadence of the whole season.
    I look forward to your discussions as much as to new episodes and hope you will be able to continue doing this in the next seasons. Please let us know if there is anything we can do to support you. I only have a small request. I would appreciate if you could avoid MAJOR spoilers. I know I belong to a tiny minority, but I haven’t read ahead. Having watched the first three seasons without havig a clue of what was going to happen and having made then the “experiment” in S4 of reading the book before the show aired, I’ve decided in future to watch the show clueless again because I enjoyed it better this way. Sometimes I feel “guilty” because I’ve only read the books once and I’m not able to quote or remember every detail, but droughtlander approaches and I can catch up…
    Many thanks and have a wonderful week.

  10. A huge thank you to Courtney, Karmen,Catherine and Antoinette. I love to listen to your takes about the show. I fell in love with show first then I started reading the books. Sometimes I feel their is so much to cover from books to the show. I think that sometimes you have to separate the two. I wish the the show wasn’t so rushed, I think they have no choice but to make drastic chances so that it works. Do you think that the actors feel the same? They all read the books and I am sure that they want to do their best portraying their character. I know that it can’t be any different or these actors would never get a break. I am excited for the finale as I have heard Sam and Caitriona feel that this is their strongest finale so far. Again I just want to thank you ladies for sharing your thoughts with us.

  11. I echo your comments Kathy and feel that some of the changes that are made don’t advance the story as Antoinette says. We long to see the relationships between our favorite characters as we do in the books. I don’t think I would enjoy the show as much as I do if I didn’t have the background story of the books with the depth of character and story that is there. I guess the downside of that is the disappointment that I feel when the story is changed or key dialogue from the books is given to another character – particularly when Jamie’s lines are given to Claire. I agree with whoever said that although Claire is a 20th century woman, she relies on Jamie to be her compass in the 18th century. Some of the things she says and does in the show I feel are the thoughts of the writers who want to make her more politically correct. That just is not how Diana Gabaldon has written her. I was disappointed that they chose to depict the sex scene with Lord John and the judge. Why they didn’t have Bree just see Lord John coming out of a slave cabin disheveled and energized – I think the word in the book is “ringing” is beyond me. As Antoinette said there is no way they would have been doing that in the hallway – Lord John was not that reckless. As a book reader I long for more of the intimate moments with Jamie and Claire – not necessarily graphic sex scenes – some of their most powerful intimate scenes they were not naked but demonstrated their deep love through a glance or touch or kiss. Thank you Courtney, Carmen, Catherine, and Antoinette – you ladies rock!!!

    • Bonnie,
      I agree with you are the Lord John and judge scene. I know that they had to show Bree that Lord John was gay but I don’t know why they just didn’t have her looking out the window and seeing him coming out of the slaves quarters like in the book. I don’t really like to criticize Outlander I just wish we had more because I love the story so much. That hour goes so fast I always come away wanting more. Hats off to the actors, I think they are all brilliant.

  12. Lovely Ladies of Outlander bts, entertaining, informative as always. Came to Outlander this time last year. Watched the first two seasons over 3 weeks and took a free trial week and watched season 3.Not being much of a reader I picked up book 1 and half way through bought the rest of the series. Read all 8 in 6 months. OBSESSED yes! I appreciate both book and series and not a purist. Episode 1 was great then I felt a bit adrift episode 6 got us back on track, we stumbled on 7 (we should have seen more Lallybrook & Uncle Ian) but I feel episodes 8 thru 11 are back on track and gaining steam! Thanks for your great talks, my husband now knows I’m not the only Obsessed fan as I laugh along and comment while watching!

  13. You are definitely not the only Obsessed fan of Outlander. I have read all 8 of Diana Gabaldon’s Outlander series books and watched the TV show series from Seasons 1, 2, 3 and now 4. I love the books and the TV series – each a gem in itself. Sam and Caitriona are brilliant in their roles and have captivated us all from day one. I am also an obsessed fan and will soon be going into serious withdrawal when Season 4 comes to an end. I am looking forward to the DVD/Blu Ray of Season 4 when it hits the store shelves. I think what fascinated me most were the indepth conversations Jamie and Claire had with each other – the bearing of their souls, their fears and their hopes, that in itself is so rare. And at the end of their conversations they have this deep regard and respect for each other: that in itself is what has had me captivated from the first book through to book 8.

  14. Thank you so much for this conversation– I have listened to all of your conversations that you have posted this season. I always find all 4 of your voices interesting and find myself reviewing my own reactions and making adjustments after I hear your points. I do love this show overall and will keep watching and buying the DVDs. There are moments of each episode that I just am amazed at the skill of the writing, directing, customing, set design, acting. I don’t want to overstate how much I love it, while offering a few observations– I do feel that the reason I got into the books and then the TV show was because of the emotional intelligence of both the lead characters in whatever circumstance they found themselves and in their own analytical skills following. Life is complicated and there are so many choices to be made. I think the early seasons illuminated life well. I must say however, that I feel this is being lost this season especially. Either there has been little screen time for Claire and Jamie together, or when they are together, their connection is not evident. I have been very disappointed in the writing overall. Sam has been given little with which to act. Caitriona’s character has become either one extreme or another. I’m losing what it is that draws them together. The sex scenes have lost that heart racing reaction we all have had– the intimacy is missing, the vulnerability between them is gone. Even the amount of clothing now seems to mask the connection. Was there a procedural change?
    I am terribly impressed with the Lord John character– both the actor David and the writing. He is becoming the much more interesting character- full of complexity and emotional intelligence. I will of course keep watching. The set design, the costumes, the secondary characters….are all wonderful.

    • Hi, Francie-
      Feel you are so spot-on in your comments, especially with regards to this season. The uneven writing, from writer to writer, overall has been incredibly disappointing for me personally. Frustrating to say the least. And I know it’s because I am clearly looking for J&C-driven episodes, not them MIA, or periphery. And I want their characters written with consistency. And not only do I not apologize for that, I will continue to expect that because as I’ve said before, Starz set the bar in Season 1, and we shouldn’t expect less. I would like them to renew Outlander through the entire book series (which I’m not married to with regards to the tv series), but in a consistent, J&C-centered story. It was done in earlier seasons with plenty of other characters (in episodes WITH J&C, not instead of), and for my two cents worth, writing was/is the key!

  15. As usual the panel was fantastic, but which one of you brought up dry-humping? I almost choked laughing so hard! I too thought she was too high up on Jamie’s body to be in the vicinity of his equipment! At any rate he was letting her do all the work. I agree with all of you that it wasn’t necessary for them to show LJG with the man in the hallway in the middle of the act. I think they would have been more discreet. But I guess it was necessary for Bree to see something so that she realizes that LJG is gay, but the way they did it, it was a bit crass. This is to Karmen, Roger may have gotten another black eye when running through the gauntlet when he first was brought to the lake camp. And I agree with one of the other commenters that it would be nice if there were no spoilers in your conversations. I am ahead of the series (finally) in my reading of the books, but by the time they make the series, I forget a lot of the details of the book and enjoy seeing how they handle getting the story across on the screen. I realize that Bree is worried about Roger and her parents for that matter returning to her safely and that she is pregnant possibly by rape, but the way Sophie plays her, its like she’s always is sick to her stomach or has just eaten something that doesn’t agree with her. Low energy possibly, but it comes off as low interest instead. I loved her in the scenes when she finally met Jamie, but she’s lost that luster for me. And I so agree with you all that they never give poor Fergus any meaty lines to sink his acting chops. He was so much more interesting when he was still a child foraging his way in Paris. Can’t wait for your next installment!

  16. Also Courtney, I believe it was Catherine who was so enamored with the color of Marsali and Fergus’s bedroom walls, so please tell her one wall of my bathroom is painted in the same color with matching towels and that color is by Clark Kensington paints and the color is called “Cardamom” like the herb, although I believe it is spelled cardamon with an n at the end isn’t it? It is a very rich almost lichen green and so beautiful and I think her front door would look splendid in that color!

  17. Hello Ladies, in rewatching a few episodes it dawned on me that Marsali and Fergus’s sons name is Jerimiah, nick name Jemma ? Has anyone noticed or said anything ? In the books it’s Germaine and Bree and Rogers son is Jerimiah nick name Gem. Any thoughts? I was surprised Courtney and the panelists never mentioned it or did I miss something?

    • No, actually their son’s name is Germaine, as you said both in the books AND tv series. The tv show does not do something different. Might sound different over whatever your viewing it on, but maybe try watching with C/C?

  18. You are correct I found it in the script but it sure didn’t sound that way at all to me. No matter who said the name. I even rewound to hear it again. Thanks!

  19. Was also thinking, perhaps Germaine is sounding different to your ear because it is being said with French pronunciation, as Jher-men, and not the American/English version, Ger-main. Just a thought…

  20. Hello long-standing fans, I would like to hear your opinion on a question I’ve been ruminating over for some time.
    I’ve been reading here and there comments and complaints about the fact that we saw less (sometimes too little) of Claire and Jamie in this season. Like many of you, I miss Claire/Caitriona and Jamie/Sam very much, even if I enjoy other charachters’ stories. On the other hand, if I remember correctly, the Bree and Roger story is an important plotline in books 4 and 5 so it seemed natural to me that they would be more front and center this season.
    However, taking into account particularly some hints that Caitriona dropped in interviews and panels, I’ve started to think that the reason why C and J are almost absent in a number of episodes is simply due to the actors’ wishes. It’s not a secret that they want to have more time to be able to carry out other projects and maybe Starz has no choice but to agree so long as they stay committed to Outlander. Perhaps the actors themselves asked for less passionate scenes to be included as well.
    Please tell me that I’m completely wrong, that I/we have nothing to fear and that in future seasons we’ll still have plenty of the leads and their story will remain the most important storyline!
    P.S. Ladies, thank you once again for sharing your thoughts on the show. Cannot wait to hear your canny observations on the finale!
    P.S.2: I hope it’s ok with you, Courtney, that I’ve used this plattform to put my question (it’s an exception).

    • Hello, Claudia!
      Was waiting to see if Courtney responded…
      At any rate, I had already written something I was hoping to submit here if she’d commented on #412 (not taking into account the actors wanted less screen time). Then along came YOU! So I’ll send it now, but let me preface with, I don’t want actors or TPTB “hinting” about if Claire and Jamie will be seen less on this show; if the actors want less Outlander, as a consumer don’t I deserve to know what I’m purchasing? Just saying:

      Please. Bear with me here. Despite some sterling acting moments (I’m looking at you Roger and Marsali), the fact that Murtagh is still with us, and the best use of “Adagio for Strings” I’ve seen since “Platoon”, I had such a visceral reaction to #412. Felt like Droughtlander had already started for me…

      Name an incredibly popular tv show over the past decades, with incredibly popular main characters.  I’m 65, so I can think of a number of them.  Now multiply that show(s) and it’s characters by 100 and that for me is Outlander.  So let’s go back to that show(s) you’re thinking of, and count how many episodes where those main characters were not in them (and let’s remember for many years a typical season easily had 20+ episodes per season), or were only shown for 15 seconds in some stock footage, with a voiceover.  No, no problem, I’ll wait…  On that rare, RARE occasion it might have happened, it felt odd, it felt wrong, and I certainly wasn’t paying extra $$ to watch it!  I am tired of reading, in other places, that seeing J&C’s loved ones and close friends exclusively in an episode, instead of them, is a “testament to their love”, or “watching people like Roger and Brianna is a credit to Jamie and Claire’s own positive qualities”. That feels insulting. And, I want to puke.

      That is not Outlander. Not for me. Call it The Fraser Family, but then I won’t care to watch with such fervor, and can stop subscribing to Starz.  And to those I’ve read on other sites who’ve said, “Now, these other characters deserve equal time”, I say they do not. Maybe I’d feel better about more Roger and Brianna if Ms. Skelton was a better actor, but she isn’t, so enough of that and sorry Mr. Rankin (who I enjoy). Outlander is the story of Jamie and Claire Fraser (and Ron Moore’s promise); it’s THAT chemistry that is Outlander, as in Sassenach, as in Claire, as in Jamie and Claire.  You just can’t take them out of their own story, repeatedly, in a 13 episode season.  I think the inconsistent writing is such a huge part of the problem (which for me started in S3).  Do the new writers not have to watch previous seasons for character references?  And the “well that’s how it was or wasn’t in the books” are tired excuses for bad writing any more.  I don’t care that in “Drums…” there are chapters that didn’t feature J&C!  I always skimmed through those to get back to J&C chapters anyway (sorry DG).  There isn’t enough show (now 12 episodes) to spend so much time on periphery characters! If they can keep Murtagh alive because he is such a fan favorite (for me as well), when he never saw the light of day in Drums, then they can bloody well somehow let the other characters participate in an episode that features J&C, NOT instead of them!  And when I hear people say J&C’s coming together has lessened because of their mature ages (which is laughable to me) I would like to remind them we are talking about freakin’ Jamie and Claire Fraser’s story, which was written by Diana Gabaldon, who is my contemporary! Not just any couple in any genre.  If you are a book reader, then you know their passion and inventive love in no way dwindles with age.  There is nothing to justify the lack of intimacy, and passion this season. Nuh-thing. This relationship is the glue that holds Outlander together for me. Oh, and Starz (+Outlander EP’s), it’s the reason it quickly became the #1 series in your channel’s history, and you would do well to remember that. If they are planning on producing a different feeling show, I WANT TO KNOW IT!

      And speaking of “remember”, what I remember is how excited I used to be for every new Outlander episode.  Now I feel as though I am girding myself in preparation for what might be done TO it.  I still want that J&C moment that people talk about in the next days, weeks, etc. You know what I mean. If you find this season satisfying, that’s great. It just hasn’t been for me, and trying to convince me otherwise is futile. There’s a reason the books, this series, have such a following, and it’s their story, this relationship for the ages, and why “fix” what isn’t broken?

      OMG, see what listening to you girls (Yessss, Antoinette, I hear you!) in the #411 Discussion did to me?! Thank you, Courtney! Perhaps I need a nice glass of red wine now… 😉

      P.S. Okay, full disclosure, during the course of Outlander’s tv series run, I have been diagnosed with three different cancers, and have luckily beaten each one, so far! Likely speaks to the veracity of my level of interest/concern, because my plan is to outlive the series and watch the dvd’s (this blog, and you ladies) wellll into old(er) age, and I just want to know J&C will be the main focus of the series to the end. It has been an amazing medicine for me! Can’t a girl wish for only the best? i so hope the finale is special. After all is said and done, I’m not looking forward to another lengthy Droughtlander…

      • Thank you for answering, Kimber. I “run” my own Outlander marathon this weekend in preparation of the finale and watching all episodes again reinforced my impression so far. In spite of some flaws, I really liked the season. Maybe it’s because I’m rather new in the fandom and have read the books only once, so I have different expectations than those who know the books almost by heart.
        You make an important point and demand transparency and honesty and I agree with you that this should be so. I’m pretty sure STARZ is conscious of how disappointed some fans are but I cannot tell whether they represent the majority since I also read a huge amount of enthusiastic responses. Are dissatisfied fans being ignored? Again, I cannot tell.
        Maril Davis pointed out in the short podcast at the end of episode #413 and in a recent article that next season we will see a lot of Bree and Roger. Inevitably, this means that there will be less Claire and Jamie, so I’ve already tuned my expectations accordingly. But I’m still looking forward to seeing S5 and beyond. Also I don’t give up the hope that we’ll get some extraordinary performances by Caitriona and Sam (OMG, they are both SO brilliant!).

        • Except I’ve seen #413 and there was plenty of R&B, yet not at the expense of J&C time. It shouldn’t have to be one, or the other! Would you agree? But yes, I WOULD like full, honest disclosure with regards to the level of the actors participation in the season! They have built what future they have in their industry, I would say in large part, on the “back” of what Outlander has done for them over the past 4 years.

          Enjoy the finale! I’ll post something in comments after Courtney posts the BTS Ladies, and I can’t wait for these girls! I don’t look at that much online, and am really not interested in doing that, but they are my favorite of the few!

        • P.S. It’s not that I won’t watch future seasons of Outlander, but if it’s less the show (in my eyes, which at my house is the only thing that matters!) I followed so ardently in past seasons, I will miss that. Will mourn that. And don’t want to mourn…

      • You’re fantastic, Courtney! Oh, and exciting news that you and The Ladies are expanding your Discussions, including going back! You will likely help me through the Droughtlander, and for that I am greatful!

      • Thank you Courtney! I’m already excited waiting to hear what the BTS Ladies thought about ep. 413. Wonderful news that you’ll accompany us through Droughtlander.

    • I am of the understanding from a recent interview by Sam that he and Caitriona plan on having more input into Season 5, so we should be seeing amazing events. We’ll see when Season 5 comes to the TV screen.

      • Fantastic news, thank you for sharing! In the meantime I saw that Maril Davis clarified a bit the situation (she either “misspoke” or was misquoted). I also read some interviews and it’s exciting to know that Sam and Caitriona are some committed to the show. If I read correctly between the lines, they want to get involved in the creative process. Maybe in the shaping and development of their character or directing an episode?

        • At Harper’s Bazaar, Sam said (when asked about working with Caitriona:
          “It’s evolved but there’s always been a trust, a mutual understanding with us. We complement each other. We work different ways and we both have our failings and also our positivity, but it really helps each other grow. We’re hoping next season to have a lot more influence in the characters and the storyline, and be a part of that creatively. We are usually involved, and some seasons have been stronger than others, but we’re possibly talking with Starz and Sony right now. We’ll see… We’ve always wanted to be a part of it and to help influence the journey and the story and also to be the guardians of our characters and protect that.”

          I believe if Starz and Sony don’t allow them to participate in this way it is to the show’s detriment, and they might be doomed to repeat this less than satisfying (my personal take) season, S4. It sounds as if he (and Caitriona?) might be concerned about that as well. If they don’t know these characters in and out after all these years, who does? The word, “guardians” in his quote really struck me! I would think their input invaluable, and would be much more optimistic about upcoming seasons if I heard this was going to happen.

          • I wanted to do the “happy dance” when I read of Sam’s perspective in his interview with Harper’s Bazaar. Sam and Caitriona are brilliant actors and any input they have and will have into Seasons 5 and 6 will shows us how they love their characters and Outlander. I sincerely trust Sony and Starz also see that Outlander will continue to be amazing when they listen to these two amazing actors and welcome all involvement and influence that Sam and Caitriona have in the show.

    • And when I hear feedback from others like you, Claudi, in tandem with S&C’s interviews MY spirits are lifted as well! Which I’ve sorely needed after this season… ;). Thank you!

  21. This comment may seem a little harsh, but this is how I feel. I was never anxious to see the next episode of this fourth season. I really just want to see and experience what Diana wrote.

    Perhaps the writers this season need to depart and write their own book.

    • Hi, Janet! What I am finding is the tv series is just perhaps finding it more and more difficult to do the books justice with such a very limited screen time allowed each season. Maybe if the books were 400 pages long it would be different, but 800-1000 told in from now on twelve, 1 hour, episodes? I hear the EP’s pat themselves on the back often, but it’s just possible that producing the brilliance of Season one (where THEY set the bar) and onward, may prove to be too difficult. Not stating that as fact, but I am troubled about what quickly became my favorite show!

      • I agree with Janet and others. I am a fan of the books and the series. I don’t need the show to follow the books exactly. What is frustrating is significant changes to our beloved characters and their relationships. Sometimes it feels as if there is change made just for the sake of change. Note that key episodes are still written by Matt Roberts and/or Toni Graphia – that says something that when it is crunch time they don’t trust those episodes to “new’ writers who may or may not be as familiar with Diana’s books. I enjoy seeing other characters – in fact I wish we would see more of Fergus and Marsali – their relationship with Claire and Jamie is so in-depth in the books and the actors who portray them are fantastic. Book readers know that Brianna and Roger’s story does take center stage along with Claire and Jamie but not to the exclusion or minimization of them as sometimes is done on the show. The reason I read and watch Outlander is the depth of character and the relationships between them. Sadly these elements have weakened significantly in seasons 3 and 4 and I think it has to do with the writing – if the characters are not given meaty dialogue they can only do so much with a scene. I hope that the writers of season 5 will read Diana’s books and come to know her characters and write dialogue and situations that are true to them. The conflict created between Jamie and Murtagh did not occur in the books – we know Murtagh died at Culloden – Jamie tells Claire about it when discussing dying and fear of dying. Of course, with Murtagh alive the writers had to create a new story line – I am disappointed that they felt the need to make Jamie and Murtagh adversaries. It broke my heart to hear Murtagh coldly tell Jamie that he would not go to Fraser’s Ridge with him – he would stay with his smithy shop and lead the regulators. Diana’s Murtagh always stayed by Jamie’s side and protected him as he promised Jamie’s mother, Ellen, that he would. I understand that Murtagh was so popular they didn’t want him to leave the series but I think he would have been just as great a character in Book 4 and 5 if he was by Jamie’s side helping him build Fraser’s Ridge.

  22. To anyone who might be interested, marieclaire.com has an article titled, “How Outlander Season 4 Compares to Outlander Book 4 Drums Of Autumn” out… Some pretty clear cut thoughts. For me, the tv series does not have to explicitly follow the books. As in, so happy Murtagh lives! 😀

    However, here’s something I learned about myself after Season 4. It used to be so unsettling for me when an episode wasn’t as well written, and didn’t come across with the continuity of other episodes. While that fact is still true, I learned that if an episode exclued J&C, it didn’t matter as much if it was well written or not. That episode was unsatisfying, for me, and was way, way worse. On both fronts, I absolutely struggled with S4…

  23. Bonnie, I heartily agree with your assessment of how Murtagh character is being used in show. Full disclosure: much as I appreciate Duncan as an actor, I didn’t think Murtagh should have been brought back at all. Now I don’t like that he is a main character, with a distinct lead storyline. And I don’t like that he and Jamie were made adversaries either.

    What I hadn’t thought about, until you mentioned it, is one result being that when Murtagh is onscreen, Jamie is off – along with focus on his relationship with Claire, later with both Bree and Fergus, and developing his primacy in an expanding Ridge community. From his first scenes, it is Murtagh whose charisma brings the local Scots together, men who were oddly hostile to Jamie, who was (oddly) indiscriminately distributing flyers in a town he was supposed to be getting as far away from as possible.

    The scene where Jamie and Murtagh found each other was lovely, almost as if the actors were as happy to be reunited as the characters. After that, NO. All hopes that Murtagh would be a support player, and Jamie confidante as part of the Ridge family, went out the window fast.

    Another impact the fiction of an adversarial relationship had is that, to highlight it, we can’t see is how much of an anathema it is to Jamie to maintain the facade of allying with the British. Even though he and Claire talk, at first, about it being a temporary measure that allows him to build a secluded and safe haven for his family and community, that is soon downplayed in service to the Murtagh v Jamie storyline.

    When I hear interviews in which producers, and cast, glibly say that Jamie has chosen to side with the British it makes me cringe. It is an alliance of convenience, at best, and how bitterly inconvenient Jamie finds it, the clarity of his intent to fight against the British – as he always has – is a major thread in the story.

    All of these things change the development of Jamie’s show character and what we were given to expect of him. Remember him pulling the factions – as well as his uncles – together at Leoch in S1? Murtagh’s storyline takes Jamie one step further from that character and from Scotland – which Murtagh now seems to represent.
    Hopefully the show’s commitment to sudden shifts in personal alliance at least puts Jamie and his Godfather back together in S5. But I’m not optimistic about how quickly.

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