Photo: Starz, Braeden Clarke breaks our hearts as Kaheroton in Episode 412.
I dedicate this OutlanderBTS Episode Discussion to Antoinette, (whom we were so happy to have back), for her courage, intelligence, authenticity, compassion, and general badassery.
Let’s drink to Antoinette!
We’re back! Discussing compelling Episode 412. What did you think of it?
We found Episode 412 to be a layered, complex, compelling episode, which stimulated lots of interesting discussion. This one was a whopping THREE hours long pre-editing!! Phew!
I hope you enjoy the final product…
To see my interview with Sera-Lys McArthur (Johiehon in Episode 412), go here ➡️ Sera-Lys McArthur, on Playing Johiehon.
For more Episode Discussions like this one, go to Episode Discussions.
If you’re looking for more Outlander during Droughtlander (aside from anticipating Bees, re-reading Diana’s other 8 books, and re-watching the show), visit my Interviews page, and Reader Favorites page.
Much love to all xo
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Which book is next for the series?
The Fiery Cross!
Excellent and always enjoyable comments by all. My hat is off to you again, Courtney for editing/condensing. I know what chore it is to edit my written work, and can only imagine the effort that goes into these. Karmen’s necklace is amazing to behold and well deserving of it’s award. Thank you for including it
You’re welcome Cece! It is a chore, but one I welcome. This one took me a full week + of working several, sometimes many, hours every day. It makes it all worthwhile to put something out I feel proud of, and that you guys enjoy ?. It is rather similar than editing writing. A little more tedious. xo
As always I love your diverse opinions and POV’s. I thought there were many things right about this episode. I do agree that the writer had a lot of help. I do think it was unbalanced and that the episode continued to show Roger in a poor light. It reminds me of the way Jamie has been shown in a poor light so many times. The writing for the male characters continues to cast them in a subservient, childlike persona while the females are not like truly strong women. They are just bossy and often unlikeable. It is so disturbing and so sad. I continue to hope it will get better. Thank you for a lively discussion. Love the necklace and very impressed with the amount of work that went into it! Congratulations, Karmen!
I always love hearing from you Ruth Ann! I agree that there were many things right about this episode. And I agree with your summary of the portrayals of men and women in the show. I continue to hope also. I feel Season 1 & 2 writers were capable of writing “nuanced, complex characters” (to quote Antoinette). I hope they hired that type of writer (Matt and Toni are both that type, in my opinion) to round out Season 5 ?. And I hope all the episodes flow better. We shall see. This work is worth it!
I found this episode to be the most enthralling of the season. As Roger is escaping then turning back and the Adagio starts, my heart started pounding and I was laser focused. The music and the action were perfectly coordinated. The tragedy and horror were so intense. I’ve watched that whole scene at least a dozen times. It was riveting, love the story and the actors were excellent. IMHO, it is one of the top episodes of the series.
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OMG this was the best Discussion ever I think! Especially the part about the ‘Theme’s’ (e.g. Alexandre and his ‘one track mind’), brilliant ! Loved your comments on Lauren, the Mohawk baby, mothers stepping into fire (that would be a flaw of Diana’s then?), the list goes on … I do think Roger and Bree deserve a break though 🙂 .
In addition to what Karmen said: I also read that the writers feel they need to deviate from the books to keep surprising the bookreaders.
I think it was very bold of Courtney to question the (real) writer on the title card 🙂 (without proof).
And it was great to have Antoinette back!
Thank you very much for this wonderful analysis. I loved the episode. It may not be in my top three from this season, but it was still great. I’m looking forward to my summer holiday in June, when I will read books 6 and 7 for the first time. To ease the pain of Droughtlander.
Andrea! I agree! (That it was our best discussion. 402 was pretty great too).
Re the walking into the fire, I talked to Diana about that, and her point was, most mothers would indeed not do this, but some people do crazy things for love, regardless of culture.
Very good point about the writers – I have heard that too. They want to surprise book readers, and I definitely like some of their surprises! And some not so much.
Everyone deserves a break, including Roger and Bree! Thanks for sticking up for them ?.
I am nothing, if not bold! Yes, probably a bold move, and I do not have proof. I just go with my gut sometimes…. Notice that I use the phrase “in my opinion” quite a lot! That one is definitely speculative/ conjectural, but I’m OK with that!
I hope you have a wonderful holiday, and always love hearing from you. xo
Honestly, the only reason I watch Outlander anymore is because of Richard Rankin. I think he plays Roger well and brings the nuance of the character to life in so many ways. Roger is awkward and shy with Brianna, as he was written in the books, because he is so smitten with her. He is definitely out of his comfort zone in the 18th century so far, but he is a good man, and Rankin nailed that as well. Despite some of the poor writing on this show, Richard seems to be one of the better actors and one of the most interesting, in my opinion. I liked this episode more than most in Season 4.
I agree with Ruth Ann Carr about Roger and the other male characterizations in the TV series. I find the feminist angle written for Jamie and Claire is beyond tiresome now and very boring. And, for the love of God, I hope the producers put Richard Rankin into some decent costumes in Season 5. The First Nation’s costumes were amazing in this episode. But, Roger’s clothing has been terrible from the beginning. A handsome man like Rankin wearing 5 oversize layers of brown, beanie hats, and culottes. Just, no! It doesn’t follow Diana’s characterization of Roger at all.
I really enjoy your discussions. Thank you for your intelligent conversations and hard work!
Theresa, I am with you regarding Richard Rankin. He is one talented actor in my opinion. I also agree with Catherine, that he didn’t bring enough sexy to Roger. And the costume didn’t help (though it was authentic). I’m so glad you enjoy our discussions. We plan to keep doing them. xo
A late follow-up comment…..Pretty hard to get your “sexy” on when you have a huge toque pulled down to your nose. lol. Have you seen the pics of Roger in that costume? Who thought that was a good idea? gawd awful, in my opinion. I am so happy to see the new costumes, for all of the actors, in the press releases for Season 5.
I love the joy, intellect and enthusiasm all four of you bring to the discussion. In addition to the skills and degrees you bring to the table, listening to you resembles a well balanced college course on all facets of Outlander. Thoroughly enjoyable! Thank you so much.
Outlander 101! I love it Susan! I’m so glad you came to class ?.
I agree with Antoinette’s comments for the most part and enjoyed listening to all perspectives. I disliked this episode for many of the reasons Antoinette pointed out. Roger and Bree are boring and this episode highlighted that. I disliked the amount of time spent on Roger’s arc—it felt forced, and what happens in the Mohawk village felt contrived to tug at our heart strings with characters we’ll meet for a few minutes and never see again. Again, it felt forced. It also took away from time that could have been spent on scenes with Claire and Jamie.
I watch Outlander for Claire and Jamie, and without them, an episode isn’t interesting or compelling, no matter how well made. I really disliked that Claire and Jamie were only seen riding through the forest and Jamie cleaning his gun. They are the central characters (couple) of Outlander and should always be front and center in the story. Outlander has always had other characters around Claire and Jamie, but Jamie and Claire have always been the core of the story. Everything comes back to them. I sorely missed them in this episode. Outlander’s heart and soul are Claire and Jamie, not Roger and Bree or Fergus and Marsali, or anyone else. The latter are secondary characters. Without Jamie and Claire, the show is an empty shell. I watched his episode once and have no interest in seeing it again.
Thank you for your comment Lauren. Jamie and Claire are where it’s “at!”
Dear Ladies,
how do you manage to make a discussion at the same time so profound and “light”?! It’s always so fascinating to listen to all your comments and different points of view as well as to “share” the room with you. Like most of the audience, I find myself nodding, laughing, frowning, etc. as the discussion progresses and often wanting to reply “live” to what’s being said. By the way, I drank a Scottish gin and tonic while watching.
It’s amazing how much you bring to the table that leaves you pondering for days and I appreciate in particular the “big themes”;! I think the producers should listen to your discussions because all the food for thought you provide could inspire certain changes, and I’m not just talking about what some people consider as “mistakes”. Having fallen in love with the show first may explain why I’m not upset when there are deviations from the book. In fact, I find certain changes better than the original source and sticking to the book is not always the best way. Many complain for instance that too much time was dedicated to the Bree & Roger story (others would like to see more) but this is from the book. I fully agree with Catherine: “fans should not dictate whre the show should go”
I liked this episode very much, from the dialogues to the music, not to mention the gorgeous costumes and settings, and most of the acting. I agree with most of your observations, but this time less with Antoinette’s. I’m really happy, though, that she’s back!
I didn’t feel the episode was unbalanced, for me every single second spent in the Mohawk village and the “Roger story” was well spent and enhanced the quality of the episode.
Last but not least, I wouldn’t worry about the influence Caitriona may have on Sam. I believe he’s not “the meek and obedient type”. He won’t agree to anything if he thinks it could harm the show and/or consequently his own career.
Once again, thank you ladiesl, specially Courtney for orchestrating this compelling discussions and for dedicating so much time to these “labours of love”!
Warm regards and a good day to you!
Claudia
Sunday afternoon. Good time to organize thoughts and feelings about the discussion of Providence – but first I want to thank you for all the time and effort you devote to enhancing the Outlander experience.
Books vs. Show
Like Catherine, I am a book and show fan, equally, but I “get” being disgruntled when J & C are not part of an episode, In the books, whether or not Jamie is part of the plot, he is always present because Claire is telling the story. For example, in Chapter 70 of Drums, Claire was administering to Maisri Buchanan advising her to mash turnips for her and her children to eat, After she dismisses her, Claire explains to us that she thought it was expedient to make Jamie eat a plate of sliced tomatoes in public view in order to encourage the immigrants to include fresh fruits and vegetables into their diet.
Writers and Producers
I agree that using a different pool of writers for each season, while creating freshness and opportunity for some, detracts from the storyline and interferes with the characters’ integrity, which I assume why Sam and Caitriona wanted to be producers. I don’t agree with the observation that Caitriona may be the stronger voice in their partnership. Sam has stood his ground when he felt compelled to “play” Jamie as he sees him. I think he just let’s Caitriona be the spokesperson.
Roger and Bree
“Well, we got trouble…right here” I do not like book Roger and Bree. I do not feel their attraction to each other. It makes me squirm. I like the arc of book Bree’s character as she matures. and book Roger’s character gains strength, resourcefulness and stamina but I don’t see them together. To boot, I do not like show Roger and Bree. I seriously disliked the scene of the consummation of their handfasting and how it mimicked Jamie and Claire’s wedding night. However, I do like Richard and Sophie. They are really a fun team. What’s a fan to do?
Help, you guys.
Re Writers and Producers – I think if the fresh new talented writers are required to familiarize themselves with the material, as the very effective Barbara Stepansky did in Season 5 – Ep 4 (?), then it would be fine. Without that, it’s a crap shoot!
I agree re Sam and Cait and producing.
And, I have to agree about Roger and Bree / Richard and Sophie! I do think they were better in S5, not so awkward feeling. xo
Fortunately Season 5 gave Roger and Bree space to be themselves; if ironically in their own time. Tufty the Squirrel and all.
This was excellent. I was glued to this discussion as the three ladies offered their opinions of Ep. 412 and agreed with much of it. However, there were a few opines that had me scratching my head. As devoted Outlander fans, I believe we feel, at least sublimely, that every episode will be another one that lifts us to the “ecstasy” we’ve come to expect from this staggering tale, and when it falls short we blow our horns in disagreement – the overriding complaint with “A Man of Worth” being that there was too much time spent with the Mohawk Indian settlement and their morays of the times. But if we settled down a bit and realized that Herself, the way she imagined it all, is the underlying genesis from which the story flows, perhaps our perception would soften a bit, even though Ron and the team took a few liberties, not unusual when moving any book to screen.
Further, there was so much that had to be resolved in the wrap-up of this last episode; Jamie and Claire’s return to River Run, the surprising bed scene between Murtagh and Jocasta, the eventual return of Roger to Brianna, and the riveting woods scene when Jamie, Claire and Roger unraveled what went so miserably wrong that precursed their eventual fate. The nuanced opinions of what was necessary to toss or keep, and who did what well I’ll leave to others. We have our opinions, after all. To my mind, that they fitted that whopping closing episode into one hour’s time was no less than a little miracle. And we all know we’ll be there when Season Five begins.
Great discussion girls, as usual. I just love all of you! What I want to know is, when they put the Father on the stake and Roger can’t take it hearing him scream any longer, he decides to end it quickly and save him the agony, but what kind of propellant was that just sitting around an Indian camp in a bucket conveniently for Roger to pick up and throw into the fire? Do you think they had kerosene? Thank you for all you do!
Lovely discussion among the ladies, as usual. For me episode 412 was fascinating to watch, encompassing as it did a full range of emotions of the principal players involved in that segment. Roger frothing up with bitter distrust about the ungodly situation he found himself in was electrifying to watch, as well as Father Alexandre’s guilt for what he had done, refusing to sway from his vow, preferring to die for his disobedience. And then there was Kaheroton, played by Braeden Clarke, who I sensed a reasonable man with an innate kindness when he offered Roger some water on the long dusty trail up to New York. His utter despair while holding the baby of his secret love while she climbed into the pyre was utterly heartbreaking. I came away from that episode in tears, so intriguing and thought-provoking as it was.
I agreed with Antoinette quite a bit on this one. Especially regarding Roger’s time with the Mohawk. Roger himself is so changed from the smarter, stronger and scrappier Roger of the books. Maybe not in comparison to the strong, scrappy and canny Highlander and Mohawk warriors he’s dropped in the midst of – or the evil Pirate, with whom he held his own – but he is certainly not a moody mush as he’s often depicted in the show. I had little to less sympathy for Father Alexandre in the show or book. His sin isn’t loving the woman, his sin is deserting her – and leaving his son, without baptism, in sin. Why am I watching half an episode about his redemption? Do the right thing, Padre, and get over yourself. And, Roger, stop whining about how Bree is or isn’t treating you. As you advice Father Alexandre in the book – keep the faith. The comparison should be between Roger and the Father Alexandre because one has faith and the other doesn’t – bad priest.
Quick one re writers being in a bubble. The Writers Room is in Los Angeles. I wonder how much time (if any) new writers spend in the OL bubble in Scotland – and it is still a comparative haven from the distractions of success at any cost pressure in Hollywood. Or what comes with having a “hit show” in the U.S. In the first season, as you’ve all said, I think there was a team that started out together, writers, actors, producers – even crew that have probably been with the show the longest. It seemed like that whole team spent a lot of time in Scotland together, during the initial creation process, Ron mostly based there with Terry. It was also the only show both Ron and Maril were working on full time. It was a different environment. A very good point about whether writers even watch previous episodes, let along the books.
MOST OF ALL FERGUS!!! I was so happy (in a sad way) to hear your Fergus love. I remain distraught about Fergus does not have a hook. It says everything about how the show creates strong women by diminishing men. Needless to say, although we do so all the time, women don’t need that (Lauren Lyle/Marsali!!?) What can a person do with a wooden hand? Can they even fish their child out of a puddle with it? No, but Fergus puts his hook to good use – and it also adds to his air of handsome danger. Ce’sar Domboy is one of the show’s most as-described hires. Here we have the most Parisian of actors, playing the most Parisian of characters and he’s barely been allowed to flash those brights. I too love Lauren Lyle and I am not surprised that they do so well together – both onscreen and off as friends. But Cesar has only been written as Fergus in flashes, particularly in Edinburgh scenes and on the ship in his battle of wills with Jamie. I’m hoping Fergus accidentally lost his wooden hand over the summer and shows up with a snappy hook in S5, and that he is allowed to speak a few words of French now and then.