Photo: Jamie and Leftenant Knox from Ep 505, Perpetual Adoration, Starz
Ohhh Kay, this is a long one. Which works nicely for being quarantined, as most of us are, no matter where in the world we cry home (as Angus says in Season 1). So, grab your beverage of choice, depending on what time it is where you are – coffee in New Zealand and Australia, and maybe in Hawaii, a cocktail before dinner in South America, and a hot toddy before bed in Europe? After lunch coffee on the US West Coast and pre dinner cocktail on the East? forget your troubles for a couple of hours and come laugh with us, and enjoy our discussion of a mutual favorite topic… Outlander!
To catch up on our Episode Discussions you may have missed, go to Episode Discussions.
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I HATE the choir singing the opening song! Very disappointed! It was enjoyable over the last 4 seasons, but when this season open, n my wonderful song had been slowed down n butchered to this choir version, to say I was unhappy, would be the biggest unspoken complaint in the world! I have come to expect the best from outlander. N this version just doesnt cut it!
Sorry Sharon. It will be different next season again!
I loved the original opening music, but I’ve grown to appreciate the new version with the choir. The earlier version with more Celtic sound fit when their locations were more in Scotland. But the newer one with the choir has more of an “Early Americana” feeling to it, which seems very appropriate for where they’re supposed to be now.
At any rate, we go back and revisit earlier seasons on Netflix or dvd often enough that I can always hear the original song, so it’s all good, imho. ☺
Bear McCreary, this is the best intro yet of our theme. Love the choral touch. Thanks for trying something new each season!
What a tough decision for Col. Jamie to make, kill Lt. Knox to keep his full identity hidden. He’s a. Proud patriot .
Interesting conversation. Thank you all.
I agree it was disjointed, and the episode suffered for that. I think they should have left it more linear.
I also wasn’t interested in Claire’s story because I felt it was clear way back in Season 3 why she ended up in London, then Scotland after Frank died. It wasn’t a story that needed telling. Agree also about Claire being religious when she hadn’t been before. That felt strange.
“It’s but one more scar, nothing to brood over” is from Season 1 after Jamie fights with the McDonalds at the Duke’s duel, and Claire is sewing him up.
I feel the same. Also was getting a little tired of all Claire’s narrations before, but this season it’s been way overdone.
Ladies, I had to laugh through this so many times. Great job.
My own observations:
Too many voice overs ( I got really bored and quit listening) and the cut forwards and back were over done and left the episode choppy and disjointed.
I do not recognize this Bree either. Book Bree was so capable, and I do not see show Bree being capable, although Jamie left her in charge. Roger is not capable in this time, and that is part of the friction between them. And Bree’s capablity went beyond Bree being able to shoot a gun. She was very industrious.
The emphasis on her PTSD while understandable, has changed the storyline, and the essence of her character. This impact is much the same as the impact on Jamie in Season two when the series delayed Jamie’s “healing” in Season one. That decision made Jamie a shadow of the Jamie of the books. I’ll reiterate that I applaud the show showing the impact of rape, but with the abbreviated time frame, we are not seeing the strong, capable Bree character just as we did not see a strong capable Jamie.
I too am sad that as Carmen said, they put the murder of Knox on Jamie. Jamie of course would kill to save his family, but the writers wrote him into this corner, and I agree that it was an unnecessary ending to this storyline. I also wonder why we don’t see Claire kill. The change of the Graham Menzies sorry to penicillin allergy I am assuming, takes the place of the woman on the Ridge who died from anaphylactic shock. I miss Claire wondering whether to record her death as what it was, as she wrote in Dr. Rawlings book. That book is the key to so many things over the next several books and so far while we have seen Claire writing, it has not been explained. It would have been nice to see her take a moment to record the twins surgery, and explaining briefly to Marsali that Dr. Rawlings had done that and she was doing the same for those after them to learn, instead of some of the voiceovers that did not make sense.
One thing that I noticed was the extreme stillness and lack of strong facial expressions that Jamie showed in contrast to those Know was showing. Although Sam used a different level of facial expression, we knew exactly what he was thinking and plotting. It harkened back to season one episode 113 ( I think) when Jamie sat at the end of the table, calmly eating bread and told Quaran Macquarrie “I ran him through”.
When Jamie said, “Only one from Broch Turach,” it was very reminiscent of that season one scene. Sam Heughan really showed us the Jamie who can think three or four moves ahead at the chess table and in dangerous situations. There were two games occurring in that room, the chess game and the game that would determine Knox’s fate. Jamie even gave one last imploring, ‘Knox” as Knox grabbed for the door knob. Jamie moved another piece on that particular game table with every logical reason he presented to Knox. Unfortunately Knox did not respond to that logic, leaving Jamie no choice. While it was an excellently played scene with some wonderful lines, it will haunt Jamie. Maril said on twitter that there was much discussion in the writers’ room about this scene. Perhaps there should have been a bit more.
I was actually much more interested in the Roger/Bree storyline than I was in Claire’s. I think the Claire storyline could have been shortened and perhaps they could have used the time to have Fergus try to intercept the messenger with the Ardsmuir roll. Perhaps Knox could have caught Fergus, lost his temper and tried to kill Fergus as he did the regulator. Jamie could have intervened, killing Knox in the process. ( Just a thought).
This was the first episode this season that I found myself looking at the clock, and my attention drifting and that happened in the voiceovers. The Jamie storyline, the Roger and Bree storyline, the twins surgery and the introduction of Adso were all enjoyable. The Graham Menzies storyline was not for me.
By the way, that church is located in Paisley, Scotland. It is a Baptist Church and the font and other items had to be brought in. So it was used to film the interior scenes. I have a friend in Scotland who related that information to me.
That again for all you guys do to make these discussions so enjoyable. We do look forward to them.
Thanks again. Not that again. LOL
Totally agree with you. Like your ending to the Knox story better than the writers’. Also don’t see why they had to change how Graham Menzies died. Does she always have to appear to be”Saint” Claire, or can she just be human Claire like Jamie was with Mr. Beardsley when he put him out of his misery.
I loved this episode. Great performance by Sam, Caitriona and Sophie. Claire, Jamie and Brianna carry a big load on their shoulders. Judgement calls that weigh heavy on their conscience. Claire – when she rather encouraged the passing away of the patient under her care, Jamie hiding his identity and loyalties, and poor Brianna suffering from PST. Roger could have been more supportive of her – more empathy on his part would help Brianna tremendously. It is true Claire wasn’t very religious, but remember back to Outlander – the first Season when poor Jamie was fighting for his life in the Abbey and Claire sat down with the Monk confessing her true identity and he introduced her to “Perpetual Adoration”, which seemed to really affect her – more like a source of strength and peace. Of course, I loved it when Jamie gave Adso to Claire.
Interesting discussion! I listen to several different outlander podcasts each week including My Outlander Purgatory, Mary and Blake, the cool table, the Outlander Podcast, and the outlander STARZ recap. I like to listen while I’m working around the house or exercising etc. lol. You all were the only ones that didn’t like the time travel element. It DID work for me… I thought it made it more interesting. I loved the Graham Menzies character. What didn’t work for me was some of the editing. I think the choppy feel was mainly due to poor editing. I love the voiceovers, and I love how they tell us things and feelings that can’t also be acted out. …again editing. I feel like the episode had potential to be much better. Also, the writing. I didn’t like the way Jamie had to kill Knox. I feel like could have been written differently. I feel like the way he did it and how he had to stage his dead body afterwards etc was difficult. But I personally love bits of time travel, 60s stuff and flashbacks as do many others. It’s so interesting to hear when someone loves an episode and someone else hates it. I don’t always agree with each opinion, but that’s what’s great about outlander. There’s something for everyone in the show!
I loved that episode as much as I loved Ep.1, 2, 3 and 4. I wat hex them all 6 times.
My boyfriend loved it less because all he wants is Jamie fighting the red coats and more history about the regulators and the upcoming revolution.
I just read Ep. 5 in the Outlandish Companion and it is very close to what was shown except for the part of Leftenant Knox as this is because the story had to be changed about the regulators as Murtagh is not alive in the book.
I disliked much about the episode. I, like you, was surprised so many loved it, thinking it was the best episode of the season or even the series. Thought it was a complete waste of an episode and, more importantly, screen time for all the things that happen in this book. If I see another rushed end of season because of this and Episode 2, I’m going to scream.
Nitpickiest moment…I don’t understand why Jamie (and sometimes others) is always holding his shotgun upright when he’s riding his horse instead of having it sheathed in some sort of holster (is that the correct term for a shotgun?). It takes me out of the scene every time.
To answer your questions about the syringe…obviously she had it wrapped in bubble wrap from the future that wasn’t invented yet to keep it safe from shattering (shm). Actually, Diana mentioned that they had filmed a scene where Claire and Bree go shopping to the local glassmaker and Claire asks him if he can make her a cylinder and describes it, and he obviously said yes. Don’t know how it looked perfectly lined to indicate amounts on the side, but this was obviously left out so therefore no context…or realism. Don’t know why they decided to use the syringe in the first place, unless they’re doing away with the future snake fangs bit, because in the book, the twins swilled the “penicillin” to try to avoid infection and then swallowed it. Her measuring out a “dosage” was also ridiculous as Claire wasn’t even sure if she had an active amount to have any effect, never mind testing Kezzie for an allergic reaction, so it was pretty much a fingers crossed crapshoot. I’m not a doctor, but also was confused as to why they didn’t use a loop to remove the tonsil(s) instead of the scalpel.
As far as Graham Menzies, as much as I liked his character, the whole point of him in the book was that he was the catalyst of Claire going back to Scotland, partly because he asked her to visit Aberdeen for him. Don’t know how they thought the penicillin lines would tie into what she was doing in the past with penicillin other than…penicillin.
I have to say I was almost in total agreement with Antoinette with this whole episode. Her line about it being all style and no substance sums it up perfectly. Yes, it was nicely filmed and acted, but what did any of this actually accomplish? Like Courtney said, who really cares or was wondering at this point what prompted Claire to go back in time? That ship sailed back in Season 3. To use almost the entire episode with their 1960’s flashbacks, IMO, was totally self-indulgent…not just toeing the line.
I hate, hate, hate the Regulator/Murtagh storyline and how they’re playing it. Did anyone notice that the broadsheet of Murtagh almost looked like he was smiling? That was odd. I asked Diana if this was anything like she had in mind when she suggested to the writers that if they were keeping Murtagh alive, associating him with the Regulators might be a way to do it. She unequivocally said no. While Jamie would probably kill Knox in this situation, I hate that the writers put him in this situation. IMO, if he did kill Knox, he would have broken his neck, not strangled him to death, but that would not allow the body to look like he died from the smoke. Then the calculated cover-up, clomping down the roof in his boots unseen and unheard, and then going to the hello kitty like he’d just done a prank that he didn’t want to get told on made him look psychopathic and more like what Stephen Bonnet than Jamie. The writers, if they wanted, could have not had Jamie spill his guts about being on the Ardsmuir rolls or being related to Murtagh. As Knox said, there are lots of Frasers in Scotland. He wouldn’t have known that Broch Tuarach is Jamie’s home. And speaking of the prison rolls…that would have taken a minimum of 3 months each way, plus the time to post over land to get to a ship and back, plus however much time it took to find the documents they were looking for, not to mention these would not be kept in Scotland but in England.
The whole Adso scene fell totally flat for me other than cute kitty.
This episode was a total disappointment for me, but I haven’t been as enthusiastic as you have on all the episodes. Thought Ep 1 was beautiful but unrealistic, hated episde 2 with the autopsy, the bread and penicillin and all the glass cloches. Episode 3 was good but wish they hadn’t changed some things, and I hated that they didn’t give Roger at least one success in the last episode. The tone and vibe of all the episodes is better and Diana insists that the second half of the season is strong so I’m still chasing that carrot that’s dangling in front of my nose. I just wish the writing would improve.
I had thought of that too about the name Fraser on the prison rolls. But my impression was that the only two Frasers on the rolls that Knox had were Jamie and Murtagh. If Jamie didn’t say anything and if Knox asked Jamie about Murtagh’s last name (which I think he would), Jamie would either have to lie or tell him they are related. Jamie isn’t going to lie about being related to Murtagh, so maybe he thought he should just tell him he’s his godfather.
I felt okay with Jamie meeting the kitten right after. I felt he had to kill Knox or Claire and his whole family would be in grave danger. I did think he was deeply affected by it.
Just one more comment on the medical scenes and the advice they should be given. Diana has stated on more than one occasion that they are told something is not right or should be done a different way and they will ignore these things if it messes with what they want to do as a visual. I can’t think of any specific examples at this point, but I wouldn’t blame the medical consultant, Dr. Claire ironically, since sometimes it is the production that is at fault.
I have to admit to being a Virgo – so I love lists and details. Maybe that’s one reason I watch/listen to you ladies, for the details. Outlander always has soul, both the books and the shows. On a first watching, I try to appreciate the heart and soul of it. Afterward, on a second, third or fourth watching, the details pop out at me. That’s what happened with 505.
First was the Menzies story. That took me by surprise, not being the same as the book. (remember to separate, Susan )
Karmen and Katherine – why didn’t Claire swab Kezzie’s ass? She made a big deal about swabbing and shooting up Jamie after Leghair got him! Also, about the syringe – in the books Claire has to create one out of a rattlesnake fang (invented by Bree) to assist with Jamie’s problem. Later on in the series she also gets a penis syringe from Dr. Fentimen. So unless she did have bubble wrap I found that to be a stretch.
Claire in the church scenes – if I remember correctly, Claire took refuge in a church in Boston after the Hinchcliffe dinner fiasco in Voyager. She found the perpetual adoration calming. It was St. Finbar’s near her house.
Finally, Lynn (the friend who was with me at the Algonquin) and I got into a very heated discussion about this episode. She defended the heart and soul of the episode while I discussed the details – as mentioned. I was worried that the discussion would end our friendship. But, thankfully, it didn’t!
It was almost political! I found it unnerving that we could love the same books and series and still have such strong opinions.
And then I thought of you ladies – and laughed!
Great job ladies, you always get me chuckling along with you! I thought the voice overs by Claire sounded like she was just reading them, not acting. So it didn’t do anything for me.
I definitely think that Karmen and Catherine could be very helpful with production values by lending their expertise of anatomy and medicine of that time so that it is done correctly in the series. They really need expert consultants if they are going to continue showing Claire treating people.
I agree, seeing Jamie kill Knox was pretty stark, but how else could he protect his Godfather in that situation? I don’t know how long they intend to keep Murtagh alive in this series (since he’s dead in the books) but surely Jamie had to protect him and himself for that matter because being a traitor to their cause is a hanging offense as well, so I don’t see where he had much choice in the matter and a quiet suffixation did the trick neatly and tied with a little Adso bow!
And you are all right, I want to see Caesar have more lines and purpose in the story. He is such a good looking guy too, so more face time so we can look at him and hear him talk with his beautiful French accent would be very nice in deady!
Take care everyone and stay safe from this dreadful virus! Love you! Suzie xoxo
I, too, felt that the episode was too choppy and too much time spent on the church scenes – Claire’s character is not that religious – Jamie is the devout one and Diana includes many beautiful prayers that Jamie recites in the books – too bad more of them are not used in the show. I absolutely HATED that they had Jamie murder Knox in cold blood – Jamie of the books would not have done that and did NOT have to do that since Muragh died at Culloden. I do realize that as the story was written for the show, Jamie had to kill Knox to protect his family. I am sorry for folks who have not read the books because they don’t get the depth of the Jamie character that book readers have – this episode makes him a much darker character than he is in my opinion. As I watched I was screaming “Jamie would not do this!” If they ultimately have Jamie have to kill Murtagh in a future episode I will really scream!!!!!! There are consequences to changing major plot/story lines from the books – I guess my issue is that the books are so rich – both story and words – that I am sad when wonderful things are left out or changed completely. I also wonder why the heck Fergus does not have any depth in this season – he now seems an afterthought – the way he was placed at the scene after Knox’s murder – he is suddenly outside when Jamie climbs down from the roof – just grunts and they walk away. What a waste of a talented actor. I agree with Antoinette – we only have 12 episodes and why waste significant time on stuff that doesn’t shine when there are so many wonderful story lines in the book. I also was startled to see that hypodermic needle – how did that suddenly appear after a shipwreck? It muted the danger of Claire performing surgery only having the oral penicillin that she has in the book and I guess they have scrapped the frightening story in the future where Jamie is injured and needs antibiotic and Bree engineers a syringe. Love these discussions and I look forward to them each week. Usually, I can’t wait to watch each show episode and want to watch them multiple times – this one I didn’t even rush to watch second time. I hope that’s not going to happen next week. I never tire of the books – I have read each one multiple times and the story and writing endure. Sorry to say, the show as seasons have gone on, is not.
I was hoping that with Sam Heughan’s and Caitriona Balfe’s contributions in the Production team of the TV Outlander Series (though I know their contributions would be limited) that Jamie’s and Claire’s beloved depth of personalities and character would have been brought to the screen to enrich the story line. I am thinking that the combination of two separate centuries is being very confused. Mixing Claire’s modern outlook and the cultural and social concepts of two hundred years earlier must be quite a challenge. When you really think of it, Claire was walking a very dangerous thin line when you think of the social outlook of 200 years earlier. I, too, being an obsessed Outlander fan, love Diana’s Outlander book series, and have read them over and over. It seems that the books and the TV series, as much as I love it too, are two separate entities. I am still looking forward to Season 5’s on-going episodes especially Episode 11 which I understand is the one Diana Gabaldon wrote, I know they will not disappoint. Keep on going Outlander – love you.